Incentives matter, sure. But what should you do when following the incentives means quietly participating in something wrong? Psychologist Adam Mastroianni argues that obeying bad incentives—shading a headline for clicks, keeping the found wallet because no one's watching—is "loser behavior," a surrender of the hardest and most human task: figuring out right from wrong for yourself. In this wide-ranging EconTalk conversation, he and Russ Roberts explore Le Guin's Omelas, the "big fish" you glimpse that could upend your whole life, and Charles Sumner's near-fatal courage. They wrestle with whether good incentives or good people matter more, why lavish academic salaries may attract exactly the wrong scholars, and the moral lessons of marriage.
Listen to the episode here.
ABOUT THE SPEAKER
Adam Mastroianni is an experimental psychologist and the author of Experimental History, a popular science Substack, and the coming soon book The Strangest Idea in the World (Penguin, 2027). His research explores how people perceive social change, how psychology can become a more paradigmatic science, and why important discoveries often take so long to emerge.
Mastroianni holds degrees from Harvard, Oxford, and Princeton. His work has appeared in The New York Times and The Atlantic and has been featured on late-night television. He has also taught and performed improv comedy around the world and once placed second on a British cooking show. He is originally from Monroeville, Ohio.
RELATED SOURCES
- Adam Mastroianni’s website.
- Adam Mastrioianni. Experimental History. Experimental History. Substack
- Adam Mastroianni. “Incentives Are for Losers”, Experimental History, August 5, 2026.
- Mastroianni’s Past EconTalk Episodes.
- John M. Darley., and C.D. Batson. “‘From Jerusalem to Jericho’: A Study of Situational and Dispositional Variables in Helping Behavior.” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 27, no. 1 (1973): 100–108.
- Mike Munger. “Michael Munger on Obedience to the Unenforceable.” Interview by Russ Roberts. EconTalk. June 19, 2023.
- Stephen Puleo. The Great Abolitionist: Charles Sumner and the Fight for a More Perfect Union. New York: St. Martin’s Press, 2024.
- Dennis C. Rasmussen. Fears of a Setting Sun: The Disillusionment of America’s Founders. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 2021.
- Benjamin Todd. “Making Your 80,000 Hours Count.” Interview with Russ Roberts EconTalk. June 1, 2026.
